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Tomas and I were discussing Christianity last night when the topic turned to the way women are treated in Christianity. I've always been a bit cold towards "outsiders" opinions on this because I think it's pretty easy to step in, take things out of context, and make judgments. Tomas is having serious doubts about what he believes and in the existence of the God of Christianity. We have been taught that the Christian God is a loving God.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God...Romans 8:38-39
Tomas feels like a loving God who's purpose for creating humans was to have creatures of free will to love why does he not let himself be known in undeniable ways?
I was thinking about the examples of women we have in the bible. When I thumb through mine I see all these men's names. Yes, I understand it was a different era but I was raised to believe that the bible was a divinely inspired, literal Word of God. If that were the case why would he not make certain men and women were treated equally? There are women in the bible, let's take a look at some of them...
In Genesis we have Potiphar's wife who became angry with Joseph (of the many colored coat) because he rejected his advances towards her and had him sent to prison.
In Exodus there is Miriam, a prophetess, who's story goes completely untold.
Judges gives us the story of Samson and Delilah who turns out to be a temptress who ties Samson down, cuts his hair, and robs him of his strength.
Then we have the tale of Ruth [Opps, that would be Esther. I thought Esther and typed Ruth. Ruth would be the gal who stuck with her mother in law.] This is the gal who saves her people by marrying the right man.
In Samuel there is the Witch of Endor.
King David's history brings several women into the mix. There is his wife Michal who got pissed because he went dancing through the streets practically naked and was cursed with childlessness because of it. Then there was Bathsheba, the wife of one of his generals who he caught a look at while she was bathing on the roof next door. He slept with her, got her pregnant, then had her husband killed so he could marry her.
Anyway, you get the idea. Not too many positive stories of women. And that's without mentioning the whore Hosea married as an example of Israel's unfaithfulness or Lot's wife who God turned into a pillar of salt.
Then we get to the instructions the bible has for we women.
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
It's interesting to me that in the book right after this one the same writer (Paul) says:
"know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." Galations 2:16
and
"The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "Gal. 5:14
Unless they happen to be female apparently.
Paul, dear man that he was, was no where near done:
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is man." 1 Cor. 11:3
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over aman; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first then Eve. And Adam was not the one who deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But a woman will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith love and holiness with propriety." 1 Tim. 2:11-15
"Wives submit to your husbands as is fitting in the Lord."Colossians 3:18
"Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children to be self controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, to be subject to their husbands so that no one will malign the word of God."Titus 2:3-5
And it goes on and on like this. As I said I understand that these were different times. However as someone who was taught that these things were applicable to my life today I am infuriated. Where am I in the bible? How can I give myself to a faith that has such a belittled role for women? I've found it difficult to let go of the childhood emotional ties that bind me to Christianity but it's becoming easier and easier. I also find it disappointing. It's like finding out a parent isn't who you thought they were. Now I am left wondering if I will ever find something to fill the whole that this has been left in my life. As a child and teen my faith spilled into so many areas. It was my social life, my spiritual life and it was my moral life. I can't live the rest of my life refusing to think about these things and I don't want to live the rest of my life without answers.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God...Romans 8:38-39
Tomas feels like a loving God who's purpose for creating humans was to have creatures of free will to love why does he not let himself be known in undeniable ways?
I was thinking about the examples of women we have in the bible. When I thumb through mine I see all these men's names. Yes, I understand it was a different era but I was raised to believe that the bible was a divinely inspired, literal Word of God. If that were the case why would he not make certain men and women were treated equally? There are women in the bible, let's take a look at some of them...
In Genesis we have Potiphar's wife who became angry with Joseph (of the many colored coat) because he rejected his advances towards her and had him sent to prison.
In Exodus there is Miriam, a prophetess, who's story goes completely untold.
Judges gives us the story of Samson and Delilah who turns out to be a temptress who ties Samson down, cuts his hair, and robs him of his strength.
Then we have the tale of Ruth [Opps, that would be Esther. I thought Esther and typed Ruth. Ruth would be the gal who stuck with her mother in law.] This is the gal who saves her people by marrying the right man.
In Samuel there is the Witch of Endor.
King David's history brings several women into the mix. There is his wife Michal who got pissed because he went dancing through the streets practically naked and was cursed with childlessness because of it. Then there was Bathsheba, the wife of one of his generals who he caught a look at while she was bathing on the roof next door. He slept with her, got her pregnant, then had her husband killed so he could marry her.
Anyway, you get the idea. Not too many positive stories of women. And that's without mentioning the whore Hosea married as an example of Israel's unfaithfulness or Lot's wife who God turned into a pillar of salt.
Then we get to the instructions the bible has for we women.
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
It's interesting to me that in the book right after this one the same writer (Paul) says:
"know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." Galations 2:16
and
"The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "Gal. 5:14
Unless they happen to be female apparently.
Paul, dear man that he was, was no where near done:
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is man." 1 Cor. 11:3
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over aman; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first then Eve. And Adam was not the one who deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But a woman will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith love and holiness with propriety." 1 Tim. 2:11-15
"Wives submit to your husbands as is fitting in the Lord."Colossians 3:18
"Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children to be self controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, to be subject to their husbands so that no one will malign the word of God."Titus 2:3-5
And it goes on and on like this. As I said I understand that these were different times. However as someone who was taught that these things were applicable to my life today I am infuriated. Where am I in the bible? How can I give myself to a faith that has such a belittled role for women? I've found it difficult to let go of the childhood emotional ties that bind me to Christianity but it's becoming easier and easier. I also find it disappointing. It's like finding out a parent isn't who you thought they were. Now I am left wondering if I will ever find something to fill the whole that this has been left in my life. As a child and teen my faith spilled into so many areas. It was my social life, my spiritual life and it was my moral life. I can't live the rest of my life refusing to think about these things and I don't want to live the rest of my life without answers.
no subject
no subject
Discomfort with something that may be true has nothing to do with whether or not it is true. If the Christian G_d did all the Bible says and wanted all that the Bible says to be taken as Law, then concepts we hold valuable outside of it (eg. equal rights) simply do not matter, if you wish to believe said Christian G_d.
Observation Two:
I've always been skeptical of the specific layout of the Bible as a whole, since not only were the words written by mere mortals (even if inspired...inspiration - consider how if you inspire a song, it may be about you, but won't be ~exactly like you~), they've been retranslated from various languages and that the books included in the canon were selected by humans as well. Lots of room for error there, boyos, inspiration or not.
Observation Three:
None of this is to discount the Christian faith in its substance. I've just always been a big proponent of empirical reasoning, even as applied to matters of faith. That might be oxymoronic of me ;-)
Whee!
Scott
no subject
Ok, look at it this way. If God were real in the Christian sense of the word... and let's assume that the bible was not actually writen by God through man but merely inspired by. And god is like the god of the bible... loving, omnipotent, all knowing, etc... Don't you think that he could have seen that in the future mankind would view women a wee bit differently and seen to it that if not given equal treatment in his book they were at least not treated badly? Is the Christian God that weak or is he just that uncaring? At some point the picture they paint of who God is just isn't true.
Oh, I think there are many many things in Christianity that are beautiful. It's just that I have had a hard time coming to grips with the inconsistancies in the version of it I was taught and with the ugliness that is in it.
Re:
Take what you can of that vision and bring into what you know of the world and life.
G_d wants you to think for yourself, which is why you were given free will. He's much more pissed about the abuse of others than if you ate an unclean animal.
(not assuming to "know the mind of G_d" - just the inclination that life and the way have shown me)
(I know this is also about what you were raised believing and that doesn't just disappear...I'm just trying to encourage you in a particular direction).
no subject
I've been meaning to ask you why you write G_d? Just a quirky habit or does it have some deep meaning? :)
Re:
Harkening back to a Jewish practice of not
even writing "G-O-D" out of respect to um...whichever commandment it is (still on my first cup of coffee). I make the distinction of saying "God" when people are referring to a very limited definition of the Deity, such as "when I say God, I mean only the Jehovah/YHWH Judeo-Christian version...and He's the only one and He can only be interpreted in that one way."
On the other hand, if you wish to speak of One who created everything, supercedes any one religion or belief, goes outside of simple definitions and is beyond petty wars and debates...G_d seems to indicate something too much for me to simply refer to with the same designation as a spoiled desert being that commands everyone to commit genocide, etc.
WHee!
Scott
Re:
there's no Santa Claus??? :-(
my main beef with the bible stemmed from revelation.....
we have the bride of christ, who is the lamb, but turns into the city of god..... so, one, you're an animal, then you're a wife, then you get turned into a city so a bunch of male virgins can divide you up amongst themselves.....
we have the whore of babylon, whose punishment for bein' a ho' is to be raped repeatedly by every asshole and their brother getting sent down to hell, before she gets to go herself.. so, fornication is bad, but rape as punishment isn't...
and then there is the woman clocked in the sun, who takes a look around, and high tails it (at least she has a good book with her according to most paintings).....
christianity has a lot of truly beautiful imagery, and a lot of tenets i can relate to... i'm not knocking christians at all.... however, it's hard for me to find validity in my own life for something that (to me) does not have a place for women outside of property, helpmeet, virgin or whore...
Re: my main beef with the bible stemmed from revelation.....
But seriously, there aren't a lot of women outside of whores, virgins, and Big Baddies.
Judges rox my sox
Judges is, by far, the coolest part of the Bible. what a great way to run a nation.
Re: Judges rox my sox
women in the Bible
Re: women in the Bible